Open Questions #4 - Diminishing Values On Outbound Links
I somehow missed this question from the Open Questions post and I can’t help but answer it.
From Adsenser
I loved your SEO empire post.
But I was wondering how much effect does a lot of links from a lot of indexed pages from the same domain have?
I always thought that the search engines looked mainly at the number of different domain linking to you.
Can you give some more info on this?
Or do you use these pages to link to a lot of different domains?
This is a fantastic opener for a conversation on sitewide outbound links affects on other sites as well as the site itself. Which has been long debated but never cleared up, not because its too complicated just because theres so many myths its hard to work the fact from the fiction. To be clear in my answer I’m going to refer to the site giving the link as the “host site” and the site receiving the link as the “target site.” Just so I don’t have to play around with too much terminology.
The entire explanation of why sitewide links, main page links, subpage links, and reciprocal links work is based off a simple SEO law called Diminishing Values. It basically states that for every link whether it be recipricol, innerlink, or outbound link there is some form of consequence. Also, for every inbound link, innerlink accepted or reciprocal link there is a benefit.
SEO Law of Diminishing Values
Diminishing Values = sum(benefits) > sum(consequences)
The need for the sum of the benefits to be greater than the sum of the consequences is essential because, as mentioned in my SEO Empire post there can’t be a negative relevancy for a site in relationship to a term. For example lets take the niche of cars. There’s a theoretical mass of car blogs. For the sake of the example we’ll say there are several thousand blogs on the subject of cars. Something in the industry happens that stirs all the bloggers such as SEMA having a car show or something. So all these car blogs blog about SEMA’s new car show coming out and give it a link. If these outbound links caused a consequence greater or equal to the valued benefit given to SEMA than all these blogs would drop in value as per the topic, cars. Thus the mass affect would be that of a negative relevancy, therefore sites with no relevancy but contain topic links would by all theory rank higher than the general census of on topic sites.
So the notion of an outbound link diminishing your sites value in equal proportion is just complete bubkiss and obviously not the way things actually work. Even if it was true and there was a compensation for on site SEO when an event in a niche happens the site hosting the event wouldn’t just rise in the rankings it would propel everyone else downwards causing more turbulence in the SERPS than what happens in actuality with just their site rising. It’s just simple SEO Theory 101, but sadly a lot of people believe it. There’s also a lot of sites that absolutely won’t link to any sites within their topic in fear that their rankings will suddenly plummet the moment they do. They’re under the greedy impression that they’re somehow hording their link value and that is in some way benefiting them. So with the assumption that an outbound link gives much more value to its target than it diminishes from its host everything in a sense balances out and outbound links become much less scary. This of course in no way says that the consequence to the host is a diminishment of any sort. It’s entire consequence could be 0 or as a lot of other people believe +X (some people think on topic outbound links actually adds to your sites relevancy). I haven’t personally seen one of my sites go up in rank after adding an outbound link but I’m open to the idea or to the future of the concept being reality.
I Practice What I Preach
The Law of Diminishing Values is one of the reasons why BlueHatSEO is one of the only SEO blogs that has all dofollow comments as well as top commentators plugin on every page. Your comments will not hurt my rankings..I’ll say that one more time Your comments will not hurt my rankings. Whewww I feel better
Back To The Question
Before we get into the meat of the question we’ll take a small scale example that we should all know the answer to.
Q: If a host site writes an automated link exchange script that automatically does thousands of link exchanges and puts those links on a single subpage and all the target sites also have their link exchange page setup the same way on a subpage. Will the host site gain in value?
A: I’ll tell you straight up from personal experience. Yes it does. It’s simple to test if you don’t believe me go for it yourself
Now we’ll move up to a much larger scale with a specific on topic example using sitewide links.
Q: If you own two 100k+ page lyric sites with lots of inbound links and very good indexing ratios, will putting a sitewide link to the other site on both raise both in value or keep them both the same?
A: Also from my personal experience, yes both will not only raise in value but they will skyrocket in value by in the upwards of 50% which can result in much higher rankings. Likewise this example can be done with any niche and any two large sites. Cross promote them with sitewide links between the two and see what happens. The results shouldn’t be surprising.
Now, on the large scale to the meat of the question.
Q: If these two lyrics site cross compared all their inbound links from other sites and managed to get all the sites that link to lyric site A to also link to lyric site B to the point at which each increased in links by 100k (same as the number of increased links would of been with a sitewide link between the two) would both sites increase in value more-so than if they did the sitewide link instead?
A: Yes absolutely. This is a bit harder to test, but if you’ve been building an SEO Empire and each site’s inbound links are from your own sites than it becomes quite a bit easier to test and I’m certain you’ll find the results the same as I did.
Conclusion
On a 1:1 ratio on a generalized population of relevant links vs non-relevant inbound links from separate domains/sites are still more effective than a sidewide link of the same magnitude. However! A sitewide link does benefit both sites to a very high degree. Just not to the degree that lots of other sites can accomplish.
Sorry that question took so long to answer. I didn’t just want to give you a blank and blunt answer. I wanted to actually answer it with logic and a reasoning that hopefully leads to an understanding of the ever so important WHY.
I couldn’t even believe my reader. You just blew my mind twice in one day. Thanks Eli.
You’re back! And what an excellent post. I see that you practice what you preach by having dofollow comments as well as top commentators plugin on every page to demonstrate the fact that “Your comments will not hurt my rankings”
That had to be one of the few useful posts on SEO I’ve read. I’m tired of crappy seo blogs that regurgitate garbage. Very good post.
Thanks Eli and good to see you’re back. This is some solid SEO information that many just don’t think about, but when you read it it comes all to clear.
So after all this BS from Google, automatic link exchanges still have value after all. IF you think about it many software directories give out thousands of links and they never lose PR either so I have ot agree with your theory and keep up the good work Eli.
Thanks guys and freemp3search had a great example i wish i would of thought of with link directories and software directories.
I know I haven’t posted in awhile so in case you missed it in your rss reader there were actually two posts today. The other is located here:
http://www.bluehatseo.com/blue-hat-technique-20-cyclic-documents/
I’ve often wondered about the site-wide links issue. It always seemed to me a bit simplistic to say ’sitewide links are bad’.
I’d be interested to know your thoughts on the impact sitewide links would have on the other outbound links from the host site - would it decrease their value massively?
I was under the impression that site-wide links were now a bad factor in the big G’s eyes. Is this correct?
Great post Eli. Regarding the automated link exchange, here’s an example of a competitor of mine that offers link exchange and is doing pretty well in the SE’s: hxxp://xxx.taxhelpattorney.com .
Now the confusing part. An example of no outbound links that’s an authority site: wikipedia.
Great results, polar opposites, I need to look at this again. Anyone, any insights drop me a line at my blog, thanks.
Really nicely explained, man. You do a good job of rubbishing the misinformation out there.
@kevin
Your competitor also appears to be running an affiliate program which is a nice way to collect on-topic inbounds (assuming the aff program uses clean links and doesn’t redirect thru a middleman like CJ). A side benefit of the affiliate program is that he can also explain away some potentially nefarious linking activity by blaming it on “rogue affiliates” (assuming he ever gets called out).
Very nicely thought out and presented post Eli. I dig people that post on results they’ve tested and not just regurgitating what they’ve read. Great job.
S
@ Garrett
You are right. I have the same problem (challenge
) as him; almost all the competition in the niche iam in uses affiliate marketing. Because of all those links they rank higher. Its weird google doesn’t recognize affiliate links, but I’ll try being my own affiliate with all the tips from Eli
long time no see post. another good one to date.
http://www.nodatetonight.com
WOW, it is so nice to hear an expert say that do-follow comments DO NOT affect your rankings, there are so much misinformed and completely moronic notions flying around on this subject, and I always laugh when I hear them from those that don’t have a clue.
Everything you said makes a lot of sense, thanks!
Thanks,
JR
SEO as in everyday life is completely full of misconceptions, myths, and bullshit.
It’s nice to read a post from bluehat again!
Just subscribed to your feed.Thank you.It’s tough as a business owner trying to determine who has the right info.
Thanks.
Great post. Our blog is all DoFollow all the time too.
Awesome post. I’ve always heard that sitewide links (especially reciprical ones) are cancelled out by Google’s oversized brain.
Thanks for clearing that up.
-Brad
Good post - Thx, you just gave me an answer to an old question
Great post, Eli like usually and happy to hear from you. We are still desperately waiting for SEO Empire part 2. Can’t wait anymore
@Garrett
Thanks for checking that out and good point on the affiliate, I must do this soon. Thanks.
Great explanation of a topic many people have problems with. The only caveat I would add is to be aware there are other factors involved and overuse of any one method could cause you problems.
Good post, I just subscribed to your feed. I am not sure if I have bad information, but I am totally avoiding site-wide inbound or outbound links on all my sites now.
glad to see you active again
Awmagad, not one, but two new posts. My feedreader is tuned to scream to me when you post, and finally it did!
Great quality as allways. Looking forward to SEO Empire part 2. What am I going to do with those million indexed pages?
Good post Eli.
We’ve also had good luck using sitewide links on properties we’re cross promoting, we try and blend the links into the content so they’re not overt if a competitor comes sniffing with a spam report but basically, dropping sw links is what we’re doing.
Wondered how you’re finding this tactic work on properties you don’t own. I’m hesitant to use a site that’s hosted them in the past, feel the footprints they leave are telling and devalue their potential.
Have you found this to be the case and if so, how do you evaluate a site you don’t own as a possible spot to host sw links?
I subscribed to your RSS feed a while ago and I’ve been reading through your posts. I just wanted to say thanks because I’m learning a lot from you. I still have quite a few posts to read through yet but so far, great stuff!
Joe - Peace and Serenity through Prosperity
Very interesting points you made there. I just wish other blogs would enable ‘dofollow”…
Really fantastic opener indeed! Outbound links can really affect your site negatively at times like mentioned above in the post! Excellent stuff really. I am bookmarking this page: http://delicious.com/britneyvaughan
Eli,
After starting to read your blog I went ahead and created a contend/scraper and rewriter. This bot is constantly generating completely unique human readable articles(about 95% pass the human quality control test). It is generating articles at a rate of about 4000 per day.
I also build an easily site creation tool. Simply select articles I wish to include, select a template and press create. It automatically creates the site on my domain of choice.
THe problem is I dont have the time to keep up with the bot. It is generating more articles than I can select and create sites with. SO the question:
1. Continue selecting articles about certain niches and creating sites with them when I get the time.
2. PUt the entire program on autopilot. Let it automatically randomly select 10000 articles for a site and build it. This would create sites that are not about any certain niche but be capable of mass site creation.
Which do you think is better??
Now I need to build an upward linking script!!
This post confirms what I’ve suspected. Refusing to link outwards isn’t doing the retentives any good.
Great to see you posing again and I’m really happy to finally get some trustworthy confirmation on what I thought but never was sure of.
Great information, Thank You for sharing……….
OK, so what you are saying is that putting (selling) outbound sitewide links on your site will not diminish its value. AND that receiving sitewide links will also not diminish your site’s value.
That seems to be counterintuitive to what I belive. I have been of the mindset to stay away from sitewide links because they tend to get you penalized more easily. Now I know for a fact (from experience at an old employer) that too many inbound links at the same time from a sitewide can and will penalize you.
I would love to hear more from you on this and swap stories!
Actually I never said there is no value drop for giving a sitewide link. I just said it wasn’t as much of a drop as the value that it gives. There is a consequence for placing a sitewide link. Although that consequence could be large to none at all. It’s just never greater than the benefit the other sites recieves. Also following the rule that no inbound link can hurt you no sitewide link can hurt you. There used to be a sandbox but that wasn’t necessarily a penalty for too many links, it was just a time buffer to test your site’s quality out. There is definitely no penalty that I’ve ever seen from too many links at once to a quality site.
To list an extreme example. I just recently this year got a sitewide link on collegehumor (2m+ links within two weeks) to a brand new site and it was a huge benefit. Never a penalty.
Really nice! two million links in two weeks! you never cease to amaze me
Eli, this is great news, everything I was reading said the opposite of your post! Thanks for keeping us properly informed!
JJ
Atlantic City, NJ
Thanks for the useful information
i’m interested it
that guy also has a kick ass domain. I mean taxhelpattorney.com, trust me it doesnt even get better than that.
Thanks man! Some times I can’t help wondering if the vast majority of SEO people have gone completely mad regarding “slipping out link juice” etc. etc. This is the internet! The very way it works speaks for the truth in your posting!
Great to see new posts on here Eli. And I still love looking back at the older info here too.
Excellent point if no one ever linked to anyone else then where would we be … Hey maybe lets do that and see how Google reacts remove all links from all sites
We really should start a campaign to get Wordpress to be Do-Follow by default. So many people start blogging without even knowing that they are a no-follow blog. I mean this should be a choice and not on by default.
I have not only added the Do-Follow plugin but also Keyword Luv and Comment Luv. My commentators should love me off lol.
hola Amigo. will echo the sentiments, nice to see you back again, especially as a recent winner of our best seo blog awards..
coincidentally we run dofollow on both blogs and recent comments from all pages also.
one question tho, what exactly does “loving you off” mean? not sure were up for that
kev@seoibiza
Ahaa, This is cool post, It has cleared bit of my doubts regarding outbound links. Thanks for Share.
Thank’s for sharing a very good post. This is highly informative.
You mentioned cross linking sites with 100k pages. I assume these are sites created by scripts.
I run a few hand written sites, which are well regarded by Google (all at page one). The sites have between 200-300 pages.
Do you think it would benefit me if I placed sitewide links at these sites pointing to another site that I want to promote?
Two points here: first, 100k anchor texts can have an effect much larger than 300 pages; second, you can risk loosing an auto generated site, but you can’t do the same with a 300 page site.
Thanks,
I am happy to see you posting again. Why is it that I have ALWAYS heard the contrary to what you just explained - even from supposed SEOs (of all types)?
Awesome eye-popping post. I’ve been diving deeper into SEO and your blog provides some great info - very much appreciated.
Woow, the post was something! At first I can understand your point so I need to read it twice. I just want to inform you that I print a hard copy of this topic so I can read and understand it carefully. Thanks!
Excellent next question, let’s try it in real life and web
Hey Eli … thanks for the post, I’ve been in the game for years and was under the “law of diminishing values” misconception you were referring to.
Since we’re talking about the value of site wide links, I’ve got a quick question I’ve always wondered about and never had the chance to test as there are a ton of variables (no control) when dealing with site wide links.
Would site wide links be considered site wide links if the link and anchor text change on every page?
For example, say you have 2 db driven sites, 1 centered around doctors from every state and city in USA. Another site sells cars and also has a page for every state/city in US. Thanks to a little php, you can strip the city/st from the url and rewrite the url & anchor text for each link so no 2 links are identical.
Is this beneficial? Do search engines still recognize this as a site wide link since they are all going to the same domain? Is this better at preventing spammy anchor text than just randomizing the words?
that is another very informative article.
i have two sites in the same niche and was afraid to sitewide them to each other. i think i will give it a try after reading this.
sorry i meant 4 sites within the same niche.
I have 2 or 3 questions on site wide links
1. Is it wise to put like 5 sitewide links pointing to 5 important internal pages of another site or would it be better and more profitable to put links to 5 different domains?
2.Is it wise to have multiple anchor texts on these links? (As asked by net-work )
Good post - this is a concept that I’ve always wondered about, yet unfortunately never really experimented with.
The Law of Diminishing Values makes perfect sense though, and I like the example with car blogs.
Very good article, cleared up some misconceptions for me. It’s good to know healthy linking won’t hurt you.
——
שלמה ארצי
Thanks Eli, great post as always. Your blog is by far the most useful information resource there is. Thanks again.
Writing Ezine Articles
Tnx for this cool post!
Glad to see you’re pack posting Eli!
I’m curious about if you have multiple sites that are being hosted on the same server, but on different domains. For instance, with your lyrics site, would those links count for much if the SE knows that both sites are on the same server, and even if they have the same WHOIS data?
Another question for the lyric site example. Aren’t reciprocal links worth very little now? So would you see much effect from that?
Thanks, and good to see some new posts!
This is a very enlightening post. It got me thinking, and maybe you already answered it in the post but I couldn’t get it in these terms - but what about targeted linking from non-relevant sites?
For Example:
Site A is a software directory and Site B is a lyric directory. Site A and Site B each have 100k+ subpages. If Site A had 1k+ pages of “lyric software” subpages and Site B had no subpages related to software, then would the total effect of inbound links to Site B from Site A be greater than Site B’s links to Site A?
Nice post, well presented and i understood it. Thanks
Thanks for answering my question!
Your definitely the best SEO blog I know.
You really inspire me to do more SEO instead of doing only ppc.
Great post with a lot of good information in it. I like that you included in the Q and A portion that you answered with personal experiences involved. It reiterates some thoughts with outbound linking.
great post i really like that…
I am in the camp that both internal and external links are vital to increasing placements and part of that is the ability for search engine to decipher true links from manufactured links. Its just to what level does Google go to determine that line. As an seo services company, we always get asked to what the future is in SEO. In my mind, it is Latent Semantic Indexing and how sites will need to embrace these notions when constructing their category taxonomies. What an interesting space!
Very Informative. I am trusting you on the dofollow doesn’t hurt. I have read the opposite from some “experts” recently. Going to bookmark your site, its tough to determine the truth from someone just chasing traffic and spewing out what they have heard.
I did not say that! Reread the article pls.
Building relevant links are keys to our success.
Thats a great article when you consider that some people are trying to sell their forum signatures for $XXXX on some sites.
Nice, thanks for speaking out about dofollow. It gets on my nerves how many sites are nofollow. Why? Its pretty much pointless.
nice post i really like it…
nice and easy source of income…
Link building is the hardest fight in SEO. It is hard to find good quality sites with same topic ready to link to you. But it is worthy.
I’m glad you endorse tactics that naive SEOs stay away from for no legitimate reason. good post.
I recently shut off my nofollow on comments to test this. It seems a lot of major SEO experts are starting to backtrack on the outbound links sucking link juice theory. Of course, since I’ve shut off no follow I’ve had to deal with a little bit more moderation. But, I’m hoping in the long run it helps more than it hurts.
I have a good feeling it will.
Hi, Good to see some activity onthe site. Great post. Makes one think of all the links that one is chasing and wonder why they make it sound so complicated.
Very great article. Slow on my comment, but still being used. Just grabbed the link and article for a friend to read. Keep it up, Eli.
This is a really nice plugin, a bit like something I use already but with some nice extrea ideas, thanks.
I agree with you. It is rubbish to think that giving out links from one’s site will diminish their sites link value.
This is a great post as it really dispels the myth of link having lower value if they exchange in same niche.
Nice stuff. Thank you. Really important.
while i agree with most of your blog post, im not sure how effective linkpages are at the moment
i am agree with of your blog post…
this is a great post i really like that…
nice extra ideas thanks…
i agree with you…
very great article…